Inside Bipolar Podcast: Overcoming Internalized Shame and Guilt in Bipolar Disorder

Shame, guilt, and self-stigma. Our host, Gabe Howard, may openly talk about living with bipolar disorder, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel shame and guilt. In this episode, Gabe and Dr. Nicole Washington dive deep into the lingering guilt many feel after a bipolar diagnosis.

Why do feelings of self-stigma persist, even after years into recovery? From internalized discrimination to societal misunderstandings, Gabe shares how he grappled with his diagnosis and the emotional baggage that followed. Learn how to confront these feelings and, more importantly, find the path to internalizing stability and success. Whether you have a new diagnosis or have lived with bipolar disorder for years, this episode will resonate with anyone seeking to break free from shame and embrace their journey.

Tune in for an honest, no-holds-barred conversation on the real struggles and triumphs behind living with bipolar disorder.

“When we think, I live with bipolar disorder and I’m not smart, I’m garbage, and I’ll never achieve, we say it to ourselves. We internalize these messages. So I think that we take the stigma from society, which is like a fire, and then we dump gas on it and then let it burn out of control. And we wonder why it’s turning out poorly for us? I think a huge protective factor against guilt and shame is to openly discuss it.” ~Gabe Howard

Our Host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, “Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations,” available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author.

To learn more about Gabe, or book him for your next event, please visit his website, gabehoward.com. You can also follow him on Instagram and TikTok at @askabipolar.

Our host, Dr. Nicole Washington, is a native of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where she attended Southern University and A&M College. After receiving her BS degree, she moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma to enroll in the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine. She completed a residency in psychiatry at the University of Oklahoma in Tulsa. Since completing her residency training, Washington has spent most of her career caring for and being an advocate for those who are not typically consumers of mental health services, namely underserved communities, those with severe mental health conditions, and high performing professionals. Through her private practice, podcast, speaking, and writing, she seeks to provide education to decrease the stigma associated with psychiatric conditions.

Inside Bipolar Podcast Episode Transcript:

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you. 

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Bipolar, a Healthline Media Podcast, where we tackle bipolar disorder using real-world examples and the latest research.

Gabe: Welcome to the podcast everyone. My name is Gabe Howard and I live with bipolar disorder.

Dr. Nicole: And I’m Dr. Nicole Washington, a board-certified psychiatrist.

Gabe: One of the things that people are surprised to hear when I talk to them is how much shame and guilt I have surrounding a bipolar diagnosis. They see me. You know, I have a bipolar logo tattoo. I have a bipolar logo. I wear clothing that announces that I live with bipolar disorder. I have the Inside Bipolar podcast. I talk about it and they think, oh well, he must be like really proud of it. And I know that’s like a real weird way to put it. But people are surprised to learn just how much shame and guilt I feel over having an illness that of course, I didn’t ask for and can’t control.

Dr. Nicole: I think you’re right, Gabe. A lot of people would be surprised, because I’m surprised that you still are holding on to that kind of thought about your bipolar disorder.

Gabe: Don’t get me wrong, as I’ve reached recovery, I feel better about bipolar disorder. It is a journey. But remember I woke up in a psychiatric hospital. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and all I knew about bipolar disorder was that mentally ill people were stupid. I believed that stigma. I believed that mental illness meant not smart, not capable, not competent. And I was also very young. You know, as you know, Dr. Nicole, the average onset of bipolar disorder is like 16 to 24. So I know that the way that I see the world in my 40s is very different than the way that I see the world in my 20s. I’m as I’ve gotten older, things that embarrassed me no longer embarrassed me, and things that I was ashamed of I’ve gained more understanding of. So part of this is just the aging process. But no, as we sit here right now, there are still things about bipolar disorder that I feel guilt towards that I feel ashamed of. Not as bad as when I was first diagnosed, but I would be a liar if I said that I do not carry any guilt and shame.

Dr. Nicole: I think that’s an important part for people to hear you say, because people do look at you and they think, well, what’s wrong with me? Because I am just not “Team Bipolar” yet. I’m not ready to wear the tattoo or the t shirt or walk in the room and say, hey, I’m so-and-so and I live with bipolar disorder. And they look at you and they think, wow, like, that’s neat. But Gabe didn’t get there overnight.

Gabe: I did not get there overnight. The tattoo that I have on my arm came much, much later. The merchandising came much, much later, and honestly, speaking openly about it came much later. I was absolutely quiet about it, especially in the workplace for a few years. I was open about it and I got fired. So that sent a real message to me that people did not respect people with bipolar disorder. You lose your job for being diagnosed with an illness. You start to think that, well, maybe there’s something wrong with having that illness. So as we sort of dig into this topic, I do want people to know that I think that a good portion of this guilt and shame comes from misunderstanding and from discrimination and stigma from others against people with bipolar disorder. But it really doesn’t matter where it comes from. The burden rests solely at our feet.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that is a very real thing, Gabe. When you think about it from a theory standpoint, it brings to mind.

Gabe: Oh, you’re about to get doctor-y.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I am, I am, it’s what I do, it’s what I do, it’s what I do. I try to keep us back in the center, keep us there. When it when it comes to a theory standpoint, there is this concept of internalized bias. And you hear about it a lot when it comes to race. So internalized racism. When we when we look at that as a concept, we think about people who believe negative things. They take in all the negative messages and all the marketing out there in the world about their particular race, and they internalize it. And when they do that, it can be even more dangerous sometimes than when it’s coming from others, when it’s coming from the people outside that race. And when we do that, it leads to a lot of just devaluing yourself. A lot of just resigning yourself to the fact that you’ll never be good enough or you’ll never be as good as those other people, or you start to feel hopeless and depressed about things. So if you take that concept and you translate it over to someone with bipolar disorder, you’ve taken all those messages over the years, you’ve taken all the things that the movies tell us about people who have bipolar disorder. You take all the the things that the news stories will tell you about people with bipolar disorder, and then you find yourself in this situation where you start to believe those things are are very negative. And and then you get this diagnosis and everything you know about this disorder, for the most part, is what you’ve heard and what you’ve the conclusions you’ve come to about the disorder over the years. And then all of a sudden now you have it and now you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m going to be one of those people. There’s a lot of self-loathing that can come with that. A lot of shame, a lot of embarrassment. It really it can hold you back from from getting to that recovery place or getting to that place of being able to find happiness. If you don’t unpack some of that.

Gabe: I love the word self-loathing. Because I think that’s a really, really good way to put it. Because this stigma, this discrimination is it’s internal. Exactly like you said, I. I believed very strongly that people with bipolar disorder mental patients. And I’m making air quotes for those who are just listening, were less than that was Gabe Howard’s belief before I was diagnosed. I can’t shy away from it. So when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, that’s the only vantage point I had. That was my only frame of reference to understand what was happening to me.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, how could you not think you were less than when you, before being diagnosed, thought that people with bipolar disorder were less than.

Gabe: Yeah, at least I’m consistent. There’s this little piece of me that’s like, hey, at least I’m self-consistent. At least I didn’t think it about others and not about myself. I mean, I guess I can pat myself on the back, but, you know, the big things went away quickly. I remember when I was first diagnosed, I, you know, I’m committed to a psychiatric hospital, the doctor tells me. And the first thing that I think is that I’m, I’m not. I’m going to die. Right? Because I only knew one person with bipolar disorder in the whole world. And he was the lead singer of the alternative rock band Nirvana. He was famous and rich and had just all the privilege and all the protective factors. And yet he couldn’t beat bipolar disorder, so I thought I didn’t stand a chance. I also thought that, oh my God, I could have been violent. I could have hurt somebody because I believed that trope as well. Both of those things went away very quickly. Now, now they’re big and they’re hopeless. And they and they they really there’s a trauma response in believing this about yourself that I’m not saying has completely left my system. I think about those days a lot and but I’m going to I’m going to I’m going to, you know, compartmentalize that over in. It’s very traumatic to be diagnosed with bipolar disorder while committed to a psychiatric hospital. But what I want to point out is the little things, the big ones went away quickly, but the little ones lingered.

Dr. Nicole: You made a lot of assumptions about what people were like who had bipolar disorder. Sounds like for you one of those assumptions was, oh, they need somebody to take care of them.

Gabe: Yep. Caregiver.

Dr. Nicole: They can’t take care of themselves. Yeah.

Gabe: I really, honestly thought, I believed in the caregiver trope. And not for nothing. I’ve been railing against this caregiver trope for people with mental illness my entire career and it’s still out there. People still believe it. And even national organizations create caregiver board positions. And I’m like, you’re saying it’s for all mentally ill people. You’re not narrowing it down. Also his caregiver the best word, Dr. Nicole? Why can’t it be support system. Family member, friend, colleague. I just can’t we think of a better word than caregiver, but we don’t. The national mental health organizations still refer to people who are allies of people with mental illness as their caregivers, and I think it does a disservice both to the caregivers who have

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Now been defined as 100% in charge and the heroes. And it does a disservice to the people with bipolar disorder, the people living with serious and persistent mental illness because it creates this illusion that we need 24/7 care. Like we’re infirmed in some way. And I think that all contributes to the misunderstanding, which ultimately contributes to stigma, which ultimately contributes to discrimination, which ultimately contributes to the topic of this episode. Shame and guilt. It’s a big old spiral.

Dr. Nicole: It is interesting, Gabe, and what this reminds me of is it sounds like another one of our language battles, our little semantics

Gabe: Yes.

Dr. Nicole: Arguments that we are, we get into from time to time. And we’ve had this come up before with person first language. And in that particular instance, you fall on the side of like, who cares what you call it? It doesn’t matter because all that matters is how we treat people and blah blah, blah, blah blah. And then now you’re like, hey, don’t call it a caregiver. I don’t need a caregiver. So I think that just goes to show you that we all have things we’re passionate about.

Gabe: I really do, and I want to say one, you’re right. As we discussed in that episode, language is incredibly complicated. And that’s why we really need to evaluate context. But let’s evaluate context. Caregiver has a definition. And that definition means to give care to somebody. And we think about it in terms in our society. Caregiving as somebody who’s taking care of somebody who’s sick. And I’m not saying it’s wrong. There are people with bipolar disorder who do need round the clock care, who do need a caregiver. But there’s also people like me who need a support system. And I

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Think that’s why we need to separate it out.

Dr. Nicole: No, I, I get what you’re saying. I think yes, maybe it should be support system as the umbrella term. And under that support system some people need an actual caregiver. Some people, you know, just need help with certain things. I understand what you’re saying, and you’re right. The word caregiver does imply a level of paternalism or a level of authority, or it says the person just can’t take care of themselves at all. That’s that’s the picture that pops up when you say caregiver. That that is the visual that we see and that is not what everyone needs. So maybe we do need to work nationally on some of the wording and what those things look like. I can see that. I just think again, it’s one of those things where we do get so caught up in what we’re what we’re calling people and what we’re saying that we sometimes miss the spirit of what is there. But I could understand how a grown man with bipolar disorder does not want to have to say out loud, oh yeah, my mom’s my caregiver. Like, that doesn’t sound great, but it sounds a lot better. And it feels better for you to be able to say, yeah, my mom’s a part of my support system.

Gabe: Exactly,

Dr. Nicole: She’s a part of my team.

Gabe: Exactly.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: And we’ve done other episodes on like building your support team where you’re the coach. And I like empowering concepts like that. And I think that sometimes, Times, especially in the beginning when we’re first diagnosed with bipolar disorder, we’re getting a lot of orders. You know, we have phrases like be med compliant you know, show up at your doctor’s appointment on time, report all. Of your symptoms, do your homework. You have to want to get better. We also have. Other phrases in our society like pick yourself up from your bootstraps and and. You know, be self-made and all of those things kind of converge into we’re hearing a lot of why won’t you just do this? And if you just do that, you’ll be fine.

Dr. Nicole: You know, Gabe, I think that you may have changed me a little bit with this, this this little snippet of convo. I have probably historically held the thought. Listen, I don’t care what we call them, I just need them to show up like I don’t. I don’t care if we call them care givers supports, I don’t care potato, potato, I don’t care what we call them. I just need somebody in your life to show up for you when we need them. But maybe. Maybe I’m. Maybe I’m softening. Maybe I have not thought about it in terms of how it makes you feel to be a grown man, to have, you know, someone refer to your support system or your support team as your as caregivers. And so I’m going to be a little more mindful of my language going forward as a result of this, because I hadn’t thought about it that way.

Gabe: I thank you, Dr. Nicole. See, that’s the point of the podcast. Just think about it, apply it to your own life and move forward. But you know, there’s another concept here that I think people with bipolar disorder are very aware of. And that’s that we don’t really have words for success. We have words for when we’re a problem, when we’re symptomatic, when we’re struggling, and then we have words like stable or what we hear got our shit together. We hear a lot of was a problem now isn’t, was symptomatic now isn’t, was experiencing now is not. But if you look over in like other health advocacy worlds, they have terms like survivor, right? We don’t have terms like survivor. We just have Gabe lives with bipolar disorder. Oh, is he doing okay? Oh, yeah, he’s fine. Right? And that’s great. But if I started saying, oh my God, I’m bipolar victorious, I’m a bipolar survivor. I’m a

Dr. Nicole: Then you sound manic

Gabe: Bipolar magnificent. You’d all think I had mania.

Dr. Nicole: Then you sound manic. Yeah. Then you sound manic. Yes.

Gabe: I know, I sound completely manic, so what I have to say is I live with bipolar disorder and I’m in a stable mood state. Now look, that’s great. I, I want everybody with bipolar disorder to be in a stable mood state. But you have to admit it, there’s no victory lap for people with bipolar disorder. So I think

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: That gives shame and guilt a space to kind of kind of operate.

Dr. Nicole: We’re not ringing the bell

Gabe: We’re not.

Dr. Nicole: For. We’re not ringing the bell.

Gabe: We’re not. I don’t get to do donuts like in NASCAR. I don’t

Dr. Nicole: No,

Gabe: Get to hold up a trophy

Dr. Nicole: None of that.

Gabe: Like at the Super Bowl.

Dr. Nicole: No, none of that. None of that. But I mean, diagnostically, I guess. And this is not something you would see necessarily, but diagnostically we think of mood episodes as being in remission.

Gabe: Right. That’s not. That’s not survivor. That’s not sexy. We have in recovery.

Dr. Nicole: Well.

Gabe: Which recovery is good. We did a whole episode on it.

Dr. Nicole: Recovery is great.

Gabe: But.

Dr. Nicole: Listen. Excitement. Highly overrated. Highly overrated. We are not looking for excitement here. We are not stable. Is sexy. Very sexy. You know what is sexy? Stability. Being consistent. Showing up in the same way for people on a regular basis. That is sexy. That is what’s attractive. That is what people look for in friendships and in relationships and in work relationships like people look for consistency. That is what is sexy.

Gabe: And there is no denying that. So my question to you, Dr. Nicole, is how do we internalize that? Because let’s face it, we’ve internalized the stigma. We’ve internalized the shame, we’ve internalized the guilt. But I suspect that we don’t internalize the stability. We don’t internalize that success. We’re really bad at it. And again, thinking about it from the perspective of somebody with bipolar disorder, people are all over us when we’re symptomatic, but as soon as we’re stable, people just leave us alone. So we get a lot of attention and a real big push during the negatives. And then we get, hey, you did it. You got your you got it together. We’re going to go away now because you don’t need us anymore during the success. Now, I’m not suggesting we get a lifelong party. I mean, you would would you go for that? Like. Like once, once.

Dr. Nicole: No.

Gabe: People with bipolar disorder reach stability, there’s nothing but party?

Dr. Nicole: No.

Gabe: Okay, that’s fair.

Dr. Nicole: I’m not pulling out the popper at every visit saying, yay! You’re still stable and letting all the stuff fly. I’m not doing that. I’m not doing it.

Gabe: [Laughter] I would love that, but I can see why that’s also not the solution. But how do we internalize our success? Because people with bipolar disorder have a lot of success that, frankly, we don’t get credit for.

Sponsor Break

Gabe: And we’re back discussing the shame and guilt caused by bipolar disorder.

Dr. Nicole: Okay, so here we go back to the part where Dr. Nicole reminds you that, you know what? Lots of people have this exact same problem. This is not unique to bipolar disorder. Lots of people struggle with being able to internalize their successes. I started off talking about internalized racism and comparing what people with bipolar disorder were feeling to that experience. That’s one I think I can speak on a little bit better, because being a black woman in America, it is definitely something I see and definitely something I’ve experienced. And I a lot of people deal with that. It really, if you’re in any group that isn’t the norm, right? If you’re in any group in the world that isn’t seen as what is normal, quote unquote, you can experience this. And so how do you figure out the way for you to start to see those positives more than you see those negatives? Well, this is also where I send you to therapy. This is also where we say all these therapists are out here doing the Lord’s work and helping us work through all of our stuff. We are all carrying these backpacks of heavy stuff, and it just all the stuff we throw into it, and it gets to the point where we just need to start unpacking that stuff with somebody, and that’s where your therapist comes in. So this is a perfect place for therapy to just thrive. And specifically, there’s a lot of data out about using CBT. But get with your therapist and figure out what they think about, about your thoughts and your feelings about yourself and how they can help you work through them.

Gabe: You and I are absolutely aligned when it comes to just because you live with bipolar disorder doesn’t mean that you aren’t falling into the same traps as every other human could potentially fall into. I know lots and lots and lots of people without bipolar disorder who experience guilt, who experience shame, and they do work it out in support groups and in therapy. Now, our specific guilt and shame, as we’re talking about in this episode has to do with bipolar disorder. So I do want to say that there’s there’s so much to unpack there.

Dr. Nicole: We do often feel a lot of shame and guilt. But your shame and guilt from your bipolar disorder came from a place of what you thought you knew about people who had that disorder.

Gabe: It also comes from what I thought a good person looked like that.

Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

Gabe: That to me is really the cornerstone of my shame. When I was manic or when I was depressed, when I was desperate. When I was sick, I really wasn’t intellectually considering my moves. I was just trying to survive. There was no reflection. There was just reaction to, frankly, an illness. As soon as I got better, I started looking back and I thought, this is not how a good person behaves. I yelled, I hate you at my mother. I screamed at people. I yelled at people about stuff as mundane as what wallpaper they had, for Pete’s sake. I promised people things and then didn’t show up. And when they expressed dissatisfaction in my lie, my unavailability, I got mad at them for telling me what to do because they’re not the boss of me. As soon as I got a very clear picture of that, I felt guilt and shame. Now, the reason that I bring that up is because I, I think a lot of people with bipolar disorder have been in my shoes, and I don’t have a way to get rid of all the guilt and shame, but I do have a way to mitigate it, compartmentalize it, and get rid of a lot of it. And that is to make amends. I do talk to people and they’re like, well, it wasn’t my fault. It was bipolar disorder. And I say, well, but it wasn’t their fault either. And it is our responsibility. And I believe that that is a very empowering statement. I am going to do whatever I can to fix what bipolar disorder did, because I’m taking the responsibility. And through that, you can actually accomplish a lot, both for the people who you may have wronged and for yourself in building up that strength and mitigating that shame and guilt. I’m not going to lie, it’s not 100% going to go away. But I got to tell you, when I was resting on that, it’s not my fault wagon, 100% guilt. 100% shame. No lessening. Just nothing but regrets.

Dr. Nicole: And those are kind of two different topics if you think about it. So the the shame that you feel for just having bipolar disorder, very different than the shame you feel for maybe some of the things you did as a result of the bipolar disorder. I think it’s perfectly appropriate for you to come out of a manic episode and learn some of the things you did and say, oh my gosh, like, wow, I’m pretty ashamed of myself at how I behaved. Like, I think that’s a very, very normal first emotion, first response to hearing some of the things that you did and or said during an episode. We’ve all been there. We’ve all said something and thought, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I said that or I can’t believe I acted in that way. I think that’s okay. Like, if that’s where you are, That’s fine. Where I think that gets dangerous is when you when you don’t put the work in to work through it, when you don’t try to figure out, okay, why did I do that stuff? That’s not who I am. That’s that doesn’t align with who I want to be as a person. Okay. Why did I do it? And then now what do I need to do going forward to try to minimize that from happening again? That’s where I think the work has to be put in, and that’s where it becomes problematic. If you if you never work through it or never try to figure out how to make amends with those people, how to put the work in, to have it not happen again, that’s where the issue comes in, because then you’re just toting around this shame. And then how can you ever feel positively about yourself? How can you ever see yourself as that quote unquote good person if you’re carrying all that shame? So those are a little bit different topics, but both are things that can 100% be unpacked with a therapist, and they can help you work through the differences between those.

Gabe: I’m starting to get the idea that you like therapy to unpack guilt and shame. [Laughter]

Dr. Nicole: I do because most people just do not have the tools that they need to be able to do that kind of work alone. There are things that people say, well, I don’t really need a therapist because I can just, you know, I can do this, this and this. And I lean on my support system and I think I’ll be okay. I don’t think this is one of those things. I think this is one of those areas that you do need a professional to help you kind of unpack. I just don’t see this as being something you can work through on your own.

Gabe: I think that a lot of this comes down to our ability to talk to ourselves, and I’ve noticed that a lot of times when I talk to myself about guilt and shame, I’m just agreeing with the guilt and the shame. I clearly feel guilty. I clearly feel shameful. And then I say something like, well, Gabe, you shouldn’t feel guilty and shameful. And then my mind immediately responds, well, why you did it? Well, that’s a good point. I did do it. Well, you’re not doing anything about it. Well, that’s a good point. I’m not doing anything about it. So therefore, why should this go away? You’re right. This is my punishment for having done it. And then that cycle just repeats over and over and over again.

Dr. Nicole: And, you know, very specific therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. That’s what it’s all about. It’s helping you learn how to reframe those thoughts into more helpful thoughts. So you take that very negative thought and reframe it into a more helpful thought. Not a super Pollyanna positive thought, but one that’s just more helpful and that helps you kind of manage the way it makes you feel when you have it. That’s the whole point of a therapy like CBT is to help you learn how to do those things for yourself, so that you don’t need that therapist in the future.

Gabe: I want to go back to something that you said about how, after a manic episode, when you reflect back on those things and shame and guilt comes in that you’re not entirely against that. Not only am I agreeing with you, I’m going to take it a step further and say that for me, the worst things are when it didn’t happen, when people would come to me and they would tell me, Gabe, while you were manic, while you were grandiose, while you were agitated, while you were angry, you did the following things. And I have zero memory of it. I that to me is worse because I’ve got to rely on their narrative, I’ve got to believe their narrative, and I’ve got to make decisions based on what they’re telling me and hope that they don’t have any bias or misunderstanding. And I can’t defend myself because I don’t remember it. I remember once there’s I was a big brother for Big Brothers and Big Sisters, and I had them from the time he was six years old. And now here he is. He’s he’s, you know, he’s 20 some years old and he’s got this really, really great job. And he starts kind of screwing around and and you know, he’s telling me screwing around, I’m like, you know, you know, buddy, you can’t screw around.

Gabe: You can’t do it. And he gets fired and he comes to me and he’s like, I got fired. What do I do? And I was like, I don’t know. And he’s like, well, I don’t have money to pay my bills. And I was like, yeah. And he’s like, well, can you help me? And I said, no. And he said, why not? And I said, because, you know, that panic that you’re feeling right now, I want you to remember that panic forever. The next time that you think, I don’t want to go to work today, I want you to remember what you feel right now, because it’s been a big protective factor in my life for me to hold my tongue for a moment and maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe take a beat before I respond, because I don’t want to put myself in a bad way.

Gabe: I’m glad he got to feel those feelings. And when I look at my bipolar disorder, which is which is much, much more difficult and has just so many more pitfalls than, you know, losing a job. I think I’m glad because whenever I think about things like, hey, do I maybe not want to go to therapy and be honest? Do I want to lie to my doctor? Nicole do I want to stop taking my medication? Do I want to stop mood tracking? I think, well, do you want to scream? I hate you at your mother again. Remember how that felt? Do you want to start being known as the unreliable one? The wrath of Gabe. Do you want all that to come back? And then I sort of remember that that, that that that lingering pit feeling in the pit of my stomach. And I’m like, no, I don’t want to go back to that at all. So I just wanted to point that out, because I think that guilt and shame can be a real big protective factor. And a lot of researchers feel that biologically, that’s why we have this emotion. I don’t know if they’re right or not, but it sounds reasonable.

Dr. Nicole: It sounds like it makes sense, doesn’t it?

Gabe: It does. It sounds yeah, it sounds logical. Researchers tend to know what they’re doing.

Dr. Nicole: Most of the time, yes. [Laughter]

Gabe: [Laughter] Dr. Nicole, I know that that, the reality is, as crisis with bipolar disorder is very public. The moments that cause us guilt, the moments that cause us shame, very public. People talk about it. And that, of course, exacerbates our feelings of guilt and shame, especially when we hear other people talk about other people who have done things that we have done. We think, oh, do they feel that way about us? I think understanding that is very important. But I also think it’s important to have a counterbalance. The reality is, is when you turn on the news, it’s all bad news. Nobody’s talking about all of the hundreds of millions of people that get up every day, go to work, take care of their families, take care of themselves, take care of their neighbors, and do the right thing. We only talk about the one neighbor who broke into the neighbor’s house and used their pool without permission. That will spread like wildfire. Can you believe she did that? Yeah, she was just skinny dipping in the neighbor’s pool. In the meantime, everybody else on that block did the right thing. We do this to ourselves. We think about the moments that were aberrant, where we did things that we do regret, that we do feel shame and guilt, but we don’t think about the hundreds of thousands of moments where we, frankly, are boring, where we do the right thing, where we make the right choice, where we hold the door open for the person to walk through. Let the person merge in traffic. None of this is sexy. I mean,

Dr. Nicole: Yes it is, Gabe. Yes it is. Stability is sexy.

Gabe: Stability, I.

Dr. Nicole: Consistency. Stability, kindness.

Gabe: Stability is sexy. You are right.

Dr. Nicole: Those things are all we gotta get out of this whole like, oh, it’s boring. It’s not boring. Excitement overrated. When you think about the times in your life that have been really, really exciting. Listen, not there. And I’m not talking about I’m on vacation and this is exciting. No, like you think about the mania, the hypomania, the exhilaration, the excitement. That is not. That’s not it. That’s not sexy. Stability is sexy. Paying your bills on time. Sexy. Having steady income. Sexy. Being able to show up for the people you love. Sexy. We gotta change this. Excitement. Overrated. We don’t need it.

Gabe: I mean, we need a little bit. Dr. Nicole. I gotta push back. Just a little. But you’re absolutely right.

Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

Gabe: Stable people may be looked at as boring, but we have lots of fun. I got to tell you, my life is not as exciting. People are not talking about Gabe as much as they used to when I acted a fool. I want to be clear, I am not the topic of conversation as much as I used to be. And that’s a good thing. Because even though my name was on their lips, it wasn’t in a positive way. When people talk about me now, it’s positive. When my mom talks about me now, she’s bragging about me. She’s proud of me for doing something. You know, Gabe just got married. Gabe just bought a house. Gabe bought a new car. He got a new job. He. He did this really cool speaking gig. He’s got this neat podcast, and he let me be a guest, you know? Before, whenever my mom talked about me, it was not positive. And it contributed to feelings of shame or guilt. I, I like your message that stability is sexy. I do, I do. It’s got the alliteration there, stability and sexy. But I also do want to be a little bit reasonable and know that just being stable isn’t enough.

Gabe: We also have to forgive ourselves. We have to make amends. We have to accept that while we made a mistake, it does not define us. We can’t just be like, hey, we’re stable and only look forward. I do think there’s some work for us to do in our past to understand why that happened and prevent it from happening again. But I also want people to know that shame and guilt are normal. I hate to say that, but people with bipolar disorder often feel like we’re not normal. Like we’re somehow different from the rest of the population.

Dr. Nicole: No, I agree with that. Support is key. Being able to see yourself in other people who are similar is very important, and I think really can go a long way in that shame and guilt, because then you start to not feel so alone, and you start to feel like there are other people who’ve been where you are and who get it, and that can really help close that gap for you quite a bit. And if you’re somebody who says, you know what, I really can’t go to therapy right now. I can’t get off work to go. I can’t afford one, you can’t find anybody where you live. The hours don’t work, they don’t take your insurance, they whatever it is. Then let’s start with building that support. And most support groups are free, wouldn’t you say?

Gabe: Absolutely. They’re free. I mean, they might pass the hat. Or as you get into it, they might ask you to bring donuts. But no, no, payment is almost never a part of joining those groups. And especially when you go for the first time, the people in the room understand how hard it is to walk into that room for the first time. So I really want to encourage you to go to those things. Now, this is going to be a little bit like preaching to the choir, but I do want to mention it. I say that because you’re already listening to a podcast, so you’re already doing it. But listening to podcasts like this and getting some foundational knowledge, reading sites like  Healthline and learning about bipolar disorder, mental health, mental illness, guilt, shame, even following a variety, a large variety of influencers on social media and getting ideas and hints and tips is a really good idea. I really advise looking at the internet like a buffet, where you take what you want and leave the rest, but also do that little gut check. Has that turkey been sitting out on the buffet a little too long? And I don’t trust it, so I’m not going to eat that turkey.